toolbox. good morning. and welcome to "this week." health care town halls. gone wild. >> i don't want the government to do it for me. >> asking the questions. >> i want to know if it's coming out of my paycheck. >> raucous crowds. both sides dig in. this morning, the debate's sweeping the country with exclusive headliners, newt gingrich. >> i don't want the government to try to run things. >> and howard dean. >> if you're not going to have a public auction don't pretend you're doing health care for me. >> gingrich and dean, face-to-face, are this week's debate. then -- >> a picture are worth a million words. >> bill clinton's mission. >> i'm not a policymaker.

>> is it a breakthrough for him. that and the rest of the 00 week's politics. with and expanded "roundtable" with sam donaldson, cokie roberts, matthew dodd and peggy noonan of the "wall street journal." as always, "the sunday funnies." >> al gore gave a speech. i don't want to say that al went on too long. halfway through the speech, the women are like, we can go back halfway through the speech, the women are like, we can go back to prison if you want. captions paid for by abc, inc. hello again. health care may be the most personal issue washington confronts in this week, there was plenty of tofd back that up. town halls on health care went viral. members of congress everywhere got tough questions. some got shouted down. as the rhetoric got heated up,

we even heard nazi germ plane. >> you be the jich of carryi ii swastikas. >> similarities between adolf hitler and people showing up at town hall to protest a hitler-like policy. is it. >> with that, former house speaker newt gingrich and former governor howard dean and also the author of the new book "howard dean's prescription for health care reform." >> mr. gingrich, are eye familiar with the term, they say it's manufactured astroturf. they say the goal is to shut down conversation not encourage it. >> i spent 20 years doing town hall meetings. i once had 800 machinist members of the eastern strike for three hours and they got to shout all

they wanted. i thought senator tom harkin was the model. his staff got nervous. he wanted to close down the meeting. harken said, no. these are americans. they have a right to talk. they engage. people are very, very upset. they're upset because the stimulus was passed on red. they're upset because at 3:00 in the morning, pelosi introduced a 300-page amendment on energy tax increase and voted on it before the next afternoon. they have a sense of a machine running over there. s there staengs in way the people are generally upset. the american way is to let them talk it over. hold as many town hall meetings as you have to. let people get it out of their system, by september, we could have a genuine dialogue. >> i know your allies, governor dean, said people are paid for. you can't force people to go out to the town meeting, you can't manufacture that kind of anger,

you can? >> well, there is actually automatic laugh orchestration which tells people to do what they're doing, sit in the front, interrupt. >> he's got like 23 friends on facebook, though. >> well, yes, but there's also other organizations including reputable companies, formerly reputable companies. i'm with the speaker. i think you want to have dialogue. i think shouting people down doesn't create dialogue. the truth here, i disagree with the speaker, you've got the congress people running around handing out stimulus checks which they've voted against stimulus. cbo estimates it's cut the reduction in gdp by at least 1%. that's a significant number. and that the stimulus is going to do other things. the don't forget, the republican playbook for a long time is to get people angry. they succeeded. there's still angry people.

i think they're vastly outnumbered. >> so you disagree on the stimulus. but you also disagree on health care, this whole idea of whether or not to have a public insurance option in the bill. and, governor, you said that health reform is not worm having. >> right. >> -- without this. and your organization is actually running ads against democrats who don't support -- >> that's not my -- >> you founded it? >> i founded it. i don't run it anymore. i do consulting work. >> let me get to the ads then. one of the democrats you went after is ben nelson -- >> i did not go after him, just a correction. >> let's see the ad. >> now, i hear that ben nelson, a senator that i voted for is leading the charge to delay health reform this summer. that's exactly what they want. the health and insurance companies have given senator nelson over $2 million know that if they can stall reform, they can kill it. i have to ask, senator, whose

side are you on? >> i want to hear about you talking to senator nelson. as you know, the white house has been pretty angry about these ads. president obama says it's counterproductive, yet, your allies are not stopping. >> there were a lot of people who are were upset about the incredible rifts that the insurance company has. this bill, the cbo scores at $60 billion a year on the house side. i think putting $60 billion a year in the health insurance company is insane. i really do. what the president wants to do is very straightforward, rough 60, 50 or 60 million americans have what newt has called socialized medicine. or government-run health care. over 65. medicare. that's what medicare is. now, what obama is essentially saying, let's give the choice of getting in a system like that or staying with what they have to the american people so if you're voting against having a public option which you're voting against what 72% of americans in two polls want which is the choice, most of them are not

going to sign up for the public option, but they think they have the choice. why should they have the choice? >> first of all, the government option we're talking about. government runs the health system entirely, the health system is a disaster. medicare is so corrupt and runs so badly we just published a book at the center for health transformation called "stop paying the crooks." the fraud is between $70 billion and $120 billion. >> veterans care working well? >> it works reasonably well. medicare is basically a private system with a government funding. an amendment was offered in every committee to have the members of congress and the staff in any government option as a mandate. if this is good enough for the american people, it's good enough for the politicians. in every committee, the democrats voted no. now, why is it they want to insist on a government-run system for everybody dput the congress but the congress and

their staff would be exempt? second, i think it's not intellectually not honest to suggest this. the way the bill in the house would work, if your company didn't offer any insurance, they would pay an 8% tax on their personnel costs. for most companies that would be a net savings of 3%, 4%, 5%. one estimate is 141 million americans will lose their private insurance and be pushed into a government plan. >> governor, had those systems taken ahold -- >> lewin associates is owned by a health insurance company. cbo which i think is a more reasonable organization says 5 or 10 million people are going to end up -- second of all, what the speaker didn't tell you, let's suppose you that get forced out of your employer-based system which is unlikely, but let's suppose you that do. the government will pay you based on your income either to

go into a public option or a private option. nobody is forcing you into the public option. now, the third thing that nobody talks about is this bill is terrific for a small business. blue dogs made it a better bill and by the time it gets through i hope it gets even better. right now on the house bill, if you're a small business, you have no responsibility whatsoever to give your employees health insurance. that now becomes a subsidy based on your income. this is choice. this is real choice. >> that's in the house bills. but the senate has made it clear they're not going to include this public option. the most they're going to get is -- >> the senate finance committee. this has passed in four out of five committees. senate finance committee has said that. >> no, but you need 60 votes to get it through. >> 51 votes. >> so you're saying you're prepared for a partisan -- >> yeah. >> if you want to see -- a substantial number of americans

are very frightened. that's a good example. the senate rules on passing reconciliation are clearly designed for budget items. if we're now going to try to rewrite 17% of the economy, life and death for every american, by pretending that massive health reform is a reconciliation item and ramming it through with 51 votes, first of all, i think a lot of democrats wouldn't vote. i think the idea of stripping the senate of its ability as a senate to operate with some sense of discretion and ramming through something of thissize will go down very badly with many senator. will go down very badly with much of the country. but i spoke to senator grassley as late as yesterday and he made quite clear that he believes there will be no government plan and no rationing in any bill flat senate passes. and that he would certainly not support that. i think grassley is very key. >> let me follow up, senator baucus, the democratic claire on the finance committee seems to agree on that.

and he's produced a draft that gets to 95% coverage, 94%, 95% coverage without a public option. >> let me just say, "a," there's no rationing in any of of these bills. secondly, 95% coverage is good. that's terrific. the problem is, you can't afford it unless you have a public option. there's no cost control on that. >> he says it would come in at under $1 trillion. >> the house is at $60 billion a year. and the senate would be at $100 billion. look, here's the problem this is why i think the public option is so important. the fundamental problem is that md care has gone up around 2% over the rate of inflation. that's bad. but the health care, the private sector has gone up 2 1/2 times the rate of inflation for 30 years. our economy sun competitive because we have an employer-based health care system. now i'm not advocateding getting rid of an employer-based health care system because a lot of employers like it and the people in it like it. but i am advocating giving people the same choice that congress has. >> really quickly because i want

to get to another issue here. >> i want to say, this is one of the great tragedies of how we're approaching this issue. i had a major hospital tell me last week they would rather go bankrupt under the house plan, if you apply the cost control without real health reform, it doesn't work. at the center of transformation, we've outlined health reform after health reformula would save billions of dollars but it's fundamentally different than the way washington thinks. when you say cost control, you're either ripping off the hospitals. you're ripping off the hospitals or the doctors. somebody. >> wait a minute. not you personally, but the republicans have had times since the last time we tried this 15 years ago, where you had the president, the house and the senate. >> right. >> and nothing happened. >> and they failed, i know. >> we think this will work. >> one of the other claims relating to cost control, the ideas that the president's plan

would encourage euthanasia. most recently, sarah palin on her facebook page friday night said that the america i know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with down syndrome will have to stand in front of obama's death panel so that his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their level of productivity in society, whether they are worthy of health care. such a system is downright evil. as you node, president called that outland issue? >> why don't they put that up -- >> he's not the chief adviser. he's written three articles from 1996 and 2008 that include some of those phrases. >> the standards. >> those phases up here nowhere in the bill. let me respond to what's in the bill. the only thing in the bill would allow medicare to pay for what they say is voluntary counseling

on end-of-life issues. >> i think people are very concerned when you start talking about cost controls that a bureaucracy -- you're asking to us trust the government. now, i'm not talking about the obama administration. but the government. you're asking us to decide that we believe that the government is to be trusted. we know people who have said routinely well, you're going to have to make decisions. you're going to have do decide. communicatal standards, historically, is a very dangerous concept. >> it's heading the bill? >> but the bill's a thousand pages of setting up mechanisms. it sets up 45 different agencies. it has all sorts of panels. you're asking to us trust turning power over to the government when there clearly are people in america who believe in establishing euthanasia, including selecting standards. >> well, this is something newt and i agree on. i don't want somebody in between the doctor and the patient. i don't want the possibility of losing your health insurance, i don't want people setting standards to denying care.

that's all that we have now. that's what happens. look, i've practiced for ten years. my wife is still practicing. never once did i have a medicare bureaucrat tell me what i couldn't do for a patient. awe the time we had bureaucrats in insurance companies saying we're not going to cover up this, we're not paying for that. we're denying that. the system we have right now is broken. we need to fix it. i think giving the american people choices about how to fix it make sense. >> we're send ending it there. we're going straight to the "the roundtable" so the panelists take their seats. back to 1989. congress had just expanded catastrophic coverage under medicare paid for by a surge tax on seniors. they let the powerful sponsor of the bill, chicago's dan rosin cowsky know just how much they hated it. >> this man is a coward. he ran away. this is what you're voting for, representation?

>> not long after that, the surtax was repealed. we're bringing in "the roundtable." i'm joined by peggy noonan of the "wall street journal." matthew dude. and author of the new book world necessity world choice. sam donaldson and cokie roberts. peggy, let's start, you wrote the message of the constituents, you're terrorizing us? >> yes, i think this whole thing is turning into a domestic political disaster for the administration. the town hall stuff, the agitation stuff. i also think the president has managed through this drama to do one thing that i never imagined would be done with that at this point and that is to unite the republican party. you've got economic republicans, libertari

libertarians, the social rite, social reforms, to this big forming blob of a thing called the health care that's coming that you're not going to like. so that's been extraordinary. there's been a lot of action nor a sleepy august, you know, big political action. >> i think it's really too bad. this is implicated stuff that affects everybody. and change is needed. and to have it turn into this kind of screaming, yelling fight at a time when people really need to be listening and learning is just a shame. and, you know, i keep wondering how this happened. those pictures that you showed earlier with the yelling, screaming people, it's just so unpressent. and i believe it has to do with the shortage of nuns, anybody that knows about nuns would not behave that way. >> you say listening and learning, but that's the problem. one of the big problems. they came home to talk about what, silly putty, there's no bill. someone said youth measure

yashgs but you can't say look at article a of this bill that we're proposing. >> section 1223. it's one in five bills. >> exactly. what's the senate going to do? what's the senate going to do with the government option? we think we know they're not going to do it. a lot of people are angry. a lot of it is organized. but that's okay. organization is the american way. but people who want health care reform that's real don't really have anything to argue. >> the thing that the white house has gotten into, they want to send people out during that recess and answer questions, what's in it for me. but the phenomenon, what you're seeing, health care has majority support. reform still has majority support. but the opposition is so much more intense than those who support it. >> well, when you watch the debate, when you start attacking the people who show up for town hall meetings means you've lost the message. they have no message as far as i can tell on what they want to do on health care. >> they want to get it done? >> to me, having gone through

this with president bush, many of this reminds me a lot about iraq. because what you had there, first thing that happened was, he took your eye off the ball. instead of afghanistan, it became iraq. and instead of the economy which i think barack obama should be focused on complete. then you have the situation that people said it was going to pay for itself. like iraq. health care reform is going to pay for itself. then the american public starts to go bad on you then you start attacking the opposition. >> let's extend the metaphor, what's the equivalent of the surge? >> i think when he lost the debate it became all about covering people who were not covered. i think he has to go back and say, this is about people who have coverage and how we're going to lower their costs because that's where the american public is right now. >> and let the insurance company out of the middle between you

and your doctor because that is what people mind. i mean, people mind the cost and they mind having to hassle their insurance company. >> but they're afraid the government is going to come in between? >> but that's the message at that opposition has managed to get out there without the people who support health care reform answering it by saying, but the person who's there right now is your insurance company. >> and when you add up this concern about government, along with the bailout of the banks, the bailout of the auto companies. a lot of this, purely is we're seeing too much too fast? >> seeing too much, too fast, but a clear sense of rye majorities but also a criteria. you add up the stimulus. you add up health care. you add up the cap and trade. and the climate change bill. you add up the deficits and you look at the federal debt which is soon going to be greater than 100% of what america producesest year. and there's a sense that somehow we've got it wrong.

we're going off the rail. we can't afford it. growth in concern about the size of our indebtedness is what we're going have to watch. >> there's also the problem of trust, i think. trust in the past few months got squandered by the hill and by the president. there was so much double talk and gobbledy gook and this plan and that plan. and all of that stuff looked like these people aren't to be trusted to take care of our new health care reform. no matter what they say, people are going to think, i don't believe you. >> this is a complicated thing. >> of course, it is, implicated things, you start out with clarity. >> let me tell you what i think is going to happen, is this, i can't conceive the democrats who have the majority in both houses are going to let that happen this year. the party would suffer. they're going to pass something. but in the watering down, and you see the public, i agree, the

public is angry and upset. and the president's lost the message, what they pass may not get done. it may not be health care reform. >> i think it's a slightly different thing than that. i think the republicans soon have to be careful at something. that this could become -- i know republicans are patting themselves on the back saying we've got the democrats on the run, obama on the run. i don't think it's politically a good place to be by november if you've defeated any health care reform -- >> but that opposition now may be the best thing to happen to president obama, cokie. it will force them to go slower which is probably a good thing. but the problem he may have is actually managing this liberal base going through? >> absolutely. i think that is going to be the problem. because, look, you could sit here right now, even though it's complicated, we could sit at this table and write a bill. >> show reform, some cost controls. >> right. but no public option, you know. and it's a big that's actually been there for a very long time. you could take the widen minute

and a bipartisan bill. and howard baker and bob dole have a bill, you know. there are bills out there that are doable. and if i had to guess, in the end, i think that's probably what is going to happen, is something much more watered down. >> but will the party be -- >> no, they're going to be absolutely furious. that is the problem he's got now. >> it would be good for the president if the left got absolutely furious about something? >> i think that's the advantage. >> okay, i understand what's going on. we got a little middle stuff going on. we got some sent terrorism. that ain't so bad. >> as we talked a few months ago, i think his biggest test is and will always be the left in the congress. that will always be the test, how far he lets them go without restraining them in. the country is in a place where they don't want the right wing republicans, they don't want the left-wing democrats. so far, barack obama has shown an inability to restrain that.

on stimulus package, health care reform, on cap and trade. many things. >> now at that stimulus is working -- >> i don't see, that's an interesting argument. 12% of the stimulus package has actually been spent so we had an $800 billion stimulus package. and something around $100 million is actually spent. i don't know any economist that could say $100 billion -- >> economists would say it made a 3% difference. >> and the fact at that unemployment rate is going down instead of up. people are taking a big sigh of relief. >> there's been 2.5 million jobs that are lost since barack obama has been president. i remember trying to make this argument when bush was president, saying the unemployment rate went down, even though we lost jobs, never was successful. >> that september number is going to have a big impact. we're going to take a big break. whether we come back, bill clinton's mission to north korea and what we can expect from justice sotomayor.

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we'll be right back with "the roundtable" and "sunday funnies." explain.

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>> president clinton humble and concise, coming off that mission from north korea. let me bng our "roundtable" back in. peggy noonan, matthew dodd, richard haas, sam donaldson and cokie roberts. of course, the picture that we wanted to see are those two journalists coming home. the picture that kim jong-il wanted the world to see is shaking his hand. who got the better end of the bargain? >> both sides gained. it was good for the united states to get these two people back. it was good for the north koreans to get the picture. the bigger story, george, this is irrelevant. nothing changes in terms of north korea. it's the most opaque country in the world. it's got nuclear weapons. barack obama can't change that, there's on one place that can change that, which is klein florida. until the chinese use their leverage over north korea, we're going to be living with a north

korean threat, a country with nuclear weapons. what bill clinton did, it's not a criticism, it doesn't change the fundamentals. >> but isn't this kim jong-il inviting him that he wants a broader conversation? >> oh, he'd love a broader conversation, have reductions and have north korea somewhat isolated but he's not going do anything significant on the nuclear side. three quarters of north korea's trade goes in and out. china is scared to bring down this country. what would happen, you'd have korea united under seoul. so china -- >> so we're seeing as many sanctions we're going to see? >> anything more would be at the margins. we're not going to see enough that's different in the sanction area that would affect one way or another the trajectory of north korea.

>> what richard is saying about china relates back to what we were talking about earlier because we can't put the kind of pressure on china that we would like to put on china to cooperate with us in terms of north korea or in terms of darfur or all kinds of other places because they own so much of our debt. and we are not in a position to really pressure them because there it is. we're beholden to them as long as we're driving up these kind of debts. >> i don't understand the angry people who say this is a terrible thing for bill clinton to do. we got the two young ladies back. for my money, let's send bill clinton to tehran where we have three hikers. give them the picture. sends the three hikers back. send it to robert mugabe if we got somebody there. >> it will encourage others to take -- >> what precedence?

1994, jimmy carter went to this man's father. >> but the advantage of using outsiders, it's easier to compartmentalize it. that's the reason you don't want to send u.s. officials. bill clinton is a bit of a gray area, a former president. but still, it gives a bill of compartment. it gives deniability. it's easier for this president, mr. obama, this is not going to lead to policy changes. that's why it's okay. >> that's the thing you saw with the white house, they were vehement that bill clinton didn't talk about anything, anything except humanitarian, getting the journalists back. he had no message for president obama. >> well, i know. it's hard to make that distinction when bill clinton goes over there, his wife is secretary of state. anybody around the world is going to think no matter what we say that barack obama either permitted it or sent him on this trip so i think there is a fear about a policy thing.

did this stand for u.s. policy and are we going to go around the world apologizing to people in order to get captives back. i think that's the problem. you cannot separate bill clinton from this administration. >> even though they've had a tense relationship. >> nobody around the world sees like that. >> oh, big dog. it's fine. >> big dog -- having a fear but no reality yet. is there going to be a reality? will we change our policy? >> you mentioned the hikers in iran. what is interesting about that is that the iranians moved the hikers to the kurdish border to tehran after the north korean mission. >> fine. i'll be happy to send -- let's send clinton and carter and bush and the other bush and get -- >> i just don't think it's necessary in the united states' interest to have somebody, bill clinton, out on an apology tour.

>> what did he apologize for. >> he went to north korea, apologized on their behalf to having violated the their law. >> just a minute, they violated their law, what's wrong with saying, we're sorry it happened? >> it's a question to be asked do we want the u.s. government to be put in a position where they wander around the world apologizing? >> i think we have more respect today because this president is realistically saying, we have made mistakes and we're acknowledging that. and we're going to have a different tone in the world rather than we're the united states of america and we have nothing to apologize for. what a bunch of huey. that will get us. >> you've got your wish we've done a great job with six months. >> there are 7 million people in the world, matthew. >> hold on. >> i'm toning you down. >> one second, what was the alternative. i take your point about the aawe

apologizing what would be the alternative when the north koreans say if you send bill clinton, we'll release the women. no choice. >> we didn't make policy concessions, we didn't agree to reduce sanctions. we didn't agree to bilateral talks as opposed to six-party talks. this is okay. >> yeah. he got the women home. he removed it. he took this little agitating issue off the table. it was not a big propaganda coup for north korea. once again, everybody looked at the pictures of north korea and kim and thought, ooh, that's not a good place. bill clinton made everybody smile again. it ended fine. >> if i had known you were on my side, i would have -- >> also, this week, the administration considered that a foreign policy success. they were even more excited about this killing in pakistan at the end of the week by the

leader baitullah mehsud killed by a drone attack. apparently, had was on the roof of his father-in-law's house with his second wife getting treatment for diabetes. the drones came in. he was killed even though it's not 100% confirmed, the administration officials believe it. and, richard, i was struck at the end of the week, the white house, the pentagon, the state department, they were really, really buzzing about this as the news started to come out. and we kept hearing again and again this is a really big deal. explain that. >> it is a big deal. it's a really good day. it helps legitimatize some of these attacks because it does show that he can be quite discrete and effective. he was important in the talabani orbit psychological and politically, this is a big setback. but all that said, twaens the decisive day. it was a good day but not a decisive day. this is not the end of the beginning. this is not the beginning of the end.

this is simply one good day for us but the fundamental problems of the pakistani governance, the realities in the pakistan war are all with us, but you don't have the decisive days. >> but also appeared to set up a fight among his subordinates, the two deputies getting in a gun fight, one or both of them may have been killed. >> no honor among thieves and terrorists. this is good. but this is the sort of thing that's still going to play out over time. these are not organizations where you're getting rid of one or two people are transformational. it's simply a long-term struggle. >> it's really a long-teller struggle. i mean, afghanistan is looking like this is going to be an incredible long slog. and seeing how the american people deal with that, and how much they continue to support it, as more and more people get killed is going to be something that's going to be for the administration. >> i know there are people who

worry about the slippery slope here, general mcchrystal may ask for another 4,000 or 5,000 troops. and just like that, we go into the big muddy again. now, maybe we contain afghanistan, the british couldn't, the soviets couldn't. all of that. maybe we can show them democracy. i don't think we were able to do that in iraq. maybe in afghanistan. i don't think so. >> the previous administration took their eye off the ball in iraq. and ignored the mission. and general mcchrystal likely to come back with the request for more troops. >> it's totally become his war. it's an interesting situation when you look at three or four years ago, who would have thought we would have debate that iraq would be all settled and iran totally out of control. he's in a situation where it sounds like rumors that the pentagon wants to double the troop strength in afghanistan.

i think it's a much more difficult situation than iran. even though saddam hussein was bad, a central government-imposed solution. afghanistan has never been the situation where a central government solution has ever worked in afghanistan. >> and peggy mentioned this idea of doubling the troops. and the pentagon said that's probably who high. the question is how many more troops mcchrystal is going to ask for. >> it's interesting for me, where we started, this drone taliban chiefsman. the american people didn't seem to notice a great deal, this interesting, good progressive movement. the american people, i think, have been under the impression that afghanistan and iraq are sort of quiet and sort of secondary at this point, but i think it's coming back in a big way. it's coming back in britain

where they've taken some real losses in people. front page story now, afghanistan. >> and so many people very concerned about afghanistan. >> you can see it in normal conversation now. people are really starting to talk about it. so it's going to shape part of our future. obama does own it now, in part, because he took it on himself to implant his face on the age. the past six months. he owns everything. >> what he's going to do is what you've suggested, this has become, as you suggested, not just his war, his war of choice. he's decided to increase our force levels. he's going to increase them more gradually, to take the fight to the taliban. the united states has essentially become a party to afghanistan civil war. we're going to try to push them out of afghanistan into pakistan. what we're going to try to do is continue to use this time to build up the police and military forces. the real question is, quite

honestly, whether that can go fast enough. >> you're going to push them out of afghanistan into pakistan. aren't we pored more about pakistan than afghanistan because they have nuclear weapons? >> pakistan is far more important but there again, you have state capacity which we're building it up. the whole idea is to buy time in 56 began stan for police and military forces so the afghans can essentially fight their own civil war. to me, the real question is whether american patience, how that compares with the ability to build that up. i think the jury's out on that. >> when you're docking about sending in more troops, what you're talking about is sending the same people who have already been in iraq back for another deployment. >> that's the most experienced soldiers. >> so these families are really feeling because this is yet another likely deployment. >> at the u.s. war college recently, the biggest thing i came away with being surrounded by young colonels and guys on their way to being generals is

that they're being exhausted by their third and fourth and fifth tour in that part of the world. and it's hurting their families. their kids are growing up without dad. >> he wants more troops but he also publicly said and i think he means that he understands the hearts and minds of people. he understands we have got to build an infrastructure in the country that makes people want to belong to something else other than the taliban. how do we do that? we were unable to do it in vietnam. i don't thing we've done it in iraq. the jury's still out. >> that implies a ten or 20-year effort. it's also a different goal than the president laid out a few months pal-r ago. he wanted a very flair row goal which is basically deny al qaeda insurgency. >> we're in possibly a generational trug to build up the middle east.

pakistan is the scariest place. the reason, by the way, george, we can put more forces in afghanistan. pakistan, the pakistanis won't have them. quite honestly, we have to hope that the pakistani government essentially fights its own fight, afghanistan, we have the forces to build them up. >> how much time do you think the public and congress will give them? congress has said, next year, we want to see it or we're going to pull the plug. >> i think the public is in a position where their lives are economically in a bad shape. their health care system is broken. they're all having a screaming and yelling match and nobody is getting it done. our deficit is out of control. like where are we going to get the money to do this. we've got to recommit more troops to afghanistan. i think the public has very little patience for more investment of resources of men and women in afghanistan. very little patience. >> unlike iraq, we have actually been on the ground in

afghanistan for a long time doing nation building. >> very little, though. >> wealll, if we can protect th people there doing it, that's one difference. that is one function that the military can provide that's useful. >> nato is actually running afghanistan, although we have half the troops there. >> and barack obama, what might be the biggest problem, these will probably not be his biggest foreign pose challenges over the next year. it's likely to be iran and its nuclear program and quite possibly iraq. as u.s. controls start to happen, you could see iraq unravel. it could become a incredibly national security inbox. just at the same time, all the things were we talking about earlier. >> he's got to hope the economy comes back and gives him some relief. almost unnoticed in all of this, judge sonia sotomayor became justice, only the 111th justice on the supreme court. she was sworn in yesterday by

chief justice roberts. >> i solemnly swear -- >> that i will administer justice so help me god. >> so help me god. >> congratulations and welcome to the court. >> big day for sonia sotomayor. big day across the country. peggy noonan, i couldn't help bit notice judge roberts had to read the oath this time. >> and a good move that was. you know, i am one who thinks, even though it's a cliche, a moving story. >> absolutely. >> this young woman who grew up in the projects. who made her way in the world, who came forward, who in my judgment should have been confirmed who was within the mainstream framework judicially of the america. and i thought it was very touching and good. and the third woman, right on. >> seeing the reactions of the groups that came together to watch the confirmation vote in the senate and probably again yesterday for the swearing in, i mean, these were women who were just overcome with emotion.

and that's telling. that's an important thing. but i also think that peggy's point about sotomayor's growing up in the projects, i think we're going to see some toughness there that some of her opponents did not really anticipate. she's been affected by crime. >> we know she's tough. we know she's a prosecutor. you never will know what she's going to do on the court. >> no, you don't. >> i suspect she won't but -- george, only two republicans, conservatives who had the possible re-election at stake, alexander from tennessee and from south carolina, lindsey graham voted to confirm her. i keep telling people to remind them that when anthony scalia

was up for re-election, 98. >> that's what's happened over the years, the where democrats line up like they did get alito, even though they knew he was qualified, they knew they did it. just like for sotomayor. they knew she was qualified. i don't think this is a good thing for the supreme court. >> it wasn't just scalia, both justice briar and roberts. president obama has himself to blame some of this. was the one who led the filibuster against scalia. >> a country can't operate that way. we need more give. >> but the country is operating that way, dysfunctionally. this is not, shall we say, a runoff or not unique. i was going to say, why the

republicans are lining up against the hispanic nominee. it's the fastest-growing group in america. 15%. this is the future. how is that going to be the party if it alienates -- >> i think that republicans figured that out, and when they're opposition, they pulled way back from where they were at the beginning of this. they spent more time talking about how great she was and i'm going to vote against her than they did talking about how bad she was. they were worried about that position. they know they cannot become a majority party in this country. i think this polarization is a bad effect on the court of law. people sit will and say, do the justices decide? it's not about the law and what's right for the country? it's about what's pretty kay at advantageous for either political party. the other thing, people are going to be watching her. sotomayor's first year or two are going to be very important. people are going to say, whether

they believed what she said at the hearings, and when justice scalia or the vacancy occurs or somebody else, it's going to be wait a second. >> a lot of people said in this round, well, she doesn't change the makeup of the court. you know, it's all right. we can go with this. the next choice could be something that does change the makeup. and that becomes a much tougher thing. you know, i think, matt, what really happened, it was already getting very polarized, but burk versus gore really crystallized that. because when you got to a court that basically decided an election. and decided an election on a 5-4 decision that was when people just -- >> we're going to have to stop it there. you guys keep going in the green room. we'll be back with "the sunday funnies."

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